Ma Anand Sheela

Fear has not touched me

A conversation with Ma Anand Sheela
— as appeared in the Transformation issue of Whitelies Magazine

Interview & Photography
Stefan Dotter

The philosopher Osho — formerly known as Rajneesh or Baghwan — promoted the philosophy of communal living with capitalistic pleasures and spiritual advancement integrated. The aim was to combine the eastern man, who is rich in spirituality but poor in terms of materialism, with the western man, who is rich in terms of materialism but poor in spirituality. When his followers, known as the Rajneesies, brought his commune from Pune, India to the countryside in Oregon, USA, a war between ideals quickly enflamed.

On the frontline of this fight was one strong woman, fighting everything the USA could bring up in legal and manpower — Ma Anand Sheela, the right hand of Osho. The story of Rajneeshpuram and its fall is a long and intense one, which was recently worked through in the Netflix documentary series “Wild Wild Country”. After years of imprisonment, Sheela built herself up again in the Swiss countryside, where she now leads two homes, named Matrusaden and Bapusaden, where she gives people who are mentally and physically handicapped a warm and loving home.

Are people here aware of who you are?

Oh yes, I’m not hiding. You see the picture of Baghwan in the entrance. People in the village think I’m a “Kult-Führer”.


When you started the whole journey with Baghwan back then, what was your vision, how did you want to transform the world?

I had no vision. Nothing. I looked at this man and I fell in love with him — it’s a love story and nothing else. It’s a love-opera.


And an opera ends in tragedy.

If it doesn’t end in tragedy it’s not an opera! You have to bring tragedy from somewhere but I must say, for the average world while it may have been, for me, it was not a tragedy. It was a completely fulfilling love story and one that is never ending. It still continues. It was Baghwan’s dream, his dream became my dream. I never sat down and thought about it.


Who decided to take the movement to the US?

The decision was his, the suggestion was mine. At that time I was living in the US. I felt the US with its wonderful constitution — I was so stupid and naive — followed that “honorable” piece of paper that was practised, executed, worshiped. But what I saw even recently in the Senate on Kavanaugh’s confirmation — it was a big parallelism of what they did to us in Oregon, on a state level. They are doing it at a federal level now.


I hadn’t thought of it that way yet.

Parallel. Complete parallel. The same way they stretched their laws or erased the laws.


They do the same now, on a massive scale.

They are doing the same. When I’m watching news — that’s what I tell my team also. I’m reliving it. This time it is not against our community, but it is against Democrats that are viewed as a cult that they want to destroy.

Countries are getting more and more divided everywhere. In Germany we feel it as well, on a much smaller scale but it is happening.

I don’t want to blame anybody but it is human conditioning not feeling shame when repeating the same mistakes over and over again — we don’t learn from them.


Why is that? Why is it not possible to have a society rooted in the affirmation of life, joyfulness, playfulness, based on science and not on blind beliefs and dogma. I was not alive when Rajneeshpuram happened — so I can’t really comment on it but I feel like right now everything is becoming more conservative and it feels like there wouldn’t even be a chance to start a movement like this.

I think now the conservatism is overruled by financial corruption and corrupt people are becoming the ruling party. Social feelings are not as important as one’s own ego. Selfishness. I am first. It’s egotism that’s overtaking. People are not there for one another. Being there is disappearing.


We are quickly departing from positive social ideals.

Right. My whole institute here is about that simple thing: being there. I wanted to be there for my parents when they were old, unfortunately I could not be there because of my chaotic life. So I saw my parents in every old person and I took them as my parents and took care of them.


That’s basically what the idea of commune is about. Everyone is your family.

Exactly, that’s what I did.


It’s shifting so far away from a social way of living everywhere. We see it very clearly in regards to the refugee crisis.

People have so much. Why can’t they share it.


It drives me mad. Look at Germany and our economy, it’s doing fantastically. We have everything. Also, the richest 10% have even more than the other 90%.

Doesn’t make sense. They should be generous with it, help refugees and people who are starving. It is really remarkable how regressive we are. Instead of progressing, going forward, we regress. We go backwards.


Do you think that trend is going to change again?

Change is not going to come without each and every one of us. Each one can take responsibility in whatever small way.

It’s the same thing environmentally speaking. It’s on everyone to make a change. That’s the way society controls us and makes us believe that someone else is in charge and we have no power.

Not only that. To support people like Trump, who denies the growing environmental disaster just because he wants to make more Billions. And promote the industries who are killing our environment. That’s where it is. And who is supporting? We are supporting unfortunately. It is the financial egoism and un-inteligencia. How will you explain anything to these aggressive morons. It is heartbreaking, scary. I’m glad that I will be gone in a few years, when these disasters are hitting the world. Not that they’re not happening already but I can still tolerate it. There comes a point where it will be intolerable for people with intelligence. I’m glad I’m old.


That’s the first time I’ve heard that sentence in my life.

(Sheela laughs) But this is true for me.


Well you fought a lot in your life. Shouldn’t it be necessary for us to have a new movement in that direction again, nowadays. To mobilise people. There is a lot of talk, but at the end of the day most people are not doing anything.

Because we are conditioned. We are afraid. We want to be part of the place where success is. The future. We are so preconditioned to pursue success that we forget to be in the moment and take care of it. If you take care of this very moment, success is right behind it but we want to see the success first and then think of the others. Unfortunately success is associated with the ego and financial gain. So we come back to the same issue.


A vicious cycle.

Yes.


It’s a little paradise you have here.

It is and we love being here. If you see my second house, it is also just as beautiful. It is in the village but still it has its own qualities.


You went from being the Queen of Rajneeshpuram to the Queen of Maisprach.

(Sheela laughs) Don’t ever say that though, they will come with the guillotine!


Oh is it like that here? But do you live in this house too? Because when I walked up you guys were just arriving, I thought maybe you live somewhere else.

I live in the house, I’m gonna show you everything. I went to therapy for my back this morning. A patient fell and I caught him, didn’t want him to have a free fall. Now I have two fractures in my back.


Two fractures for you are not a big deal right.

It won’t kill me, and if it does at least I don’t have to think about Trump anymore!


Your behaviour in the days of Rajneeshpuram was very provocative. How important is a strong provocative voice in this context?

It’s the problem of the image. The liberals don’t want to lose their image of being superior. Intellectual, standard of speech, etc. They don’t want to drop that facade. Sometimes you have to use the same words that they are using so they can understand. I had the training of Baghwan. He said fight fire with fire. There is no compromise on that issue. I had to use words as a deterrant from these people who wanted to harm the Rajneeshis. It was the commitment I had to him and his people that gave me the strength to go out there and be in front. I’m not a big person, I was always small. It’s about what is inside, and what was inside me was very clear. I was protecting our community. There I could not worry about my image. It was not a vanity project. That was the job he had assigned me.


Didn’t you find there was not enough about his teachings in the documentary?

Sure, but think of it the other way. When you see all the action in the documentary you say wow — where does this come from? You go right back to the roots. I have not seen anyone yet who is open, who has not been touched. I speak enough about Baghwan, even in the film. It was his motivation that made me move these mountains. On my own I could never imagine being a part of such a creation.


I’m just sad I wasnʼt alive back then. You tell me if you’re starting a movement.

(Sheela laughs) I can fully understand that. Well, I don’t have a movement but I live the same way as in Rajneeshpuram.


The same values. Because if we cut down everything to the essence, it’s all about being controlled by fear and not our values.

Fear has not touched me.